Episode 405 Podcast > Full Transcript
Lori Holden, Intro:
If you've been listening here long, you know that to believe that adoptive parenting is no different from regular old parenting will likely end up with you feeling blindsided someday; without tools and without strategies. This is because all adoptions are a result of some sort of rupture or disconnection. And even if necessary, leave a wound that needs acknowledgment and care. The attunement and tending abilities of the care giver can make a huge difference for the adoptee in forming new connections, including within himself or herself.
With me today is my friend and therapeutic parent, Adi Tilford, a fellow Coloradoan. Adi is an adoptive mom and a longtime educator advocating for therapeutic trauma-informed living. Adi’s writing and speaking engagements illuminate the power of therapeutic love, the ongoing journey of healing from complex developmental trauma and the in-the-trenches experiences of becoming a therapeutic parent, educator and friend.
Most of the year, Adi plays in the desert of Colorado, where the Cactus bloom and the Coyotes caper in the front yard. She's making her home the place she loves to be with her hubby, Sam, and their two incredible daughters.
Lori Holden:
Hello, Adi, and welcome.
Adi Tilford:
Hi, Lori. I teared up.
Lori:
You're so accomplished. And I'm so excited to talk with you about therapeutic parenting. But I kind of want to talk about even the word therapeutic and therapy, because I think in past eras, I think we're coming out of this. But in past eras, somebody who needed therapy was kind of seen as somebody who was weak or had big problems and big challenges and big need. And I think that's kind of changing. But what do you think about that?
Adi:
Well, it's actually one of the reasons I have decided to intentionally use those words, therapeutic and trauma-informed, in my descriptions in my bio is to continue to help break that stigma and normalize how beneficial being in therapy or receiving what therapy can offer, or even learning some of the gifts and skill sets that are provided through therapy and then being able to apply them in everyday life. I think that it just really makes a difference and it helps get rid of that shame or even the philosophy that something's wrong with you because you need therapy or you're around therapy, but instead that everyone can benefit from having someone who is present, listening and skilled in providing care for you.
Lori:
I love that. And I think I heard somebody liken it to dentist. Just because you go to the dentist regularly probably doesn't mean you have bad teeth. It might mean you have really good teeth. And so, we can maybe overlay that idea with sometimes getting a tune up with a therapist, and like you say, just learning and sitting in the presence of somebody who can sit with you without judgment and let you fill yourself up.
So, as we get into this, why don't you start out by telling us what was your path into adoptive parenting?
Adi:
Sure. Yeah. Well, I kind of always start with the fact that growing up, one of my best friends was adopted by her family. And so, from my earliest ages, I was raised alongside an adoptee who was my closest friend. And so, that was always something, I think, I kind of thought was a cool thing that her parents had adopted her. I didn't really know their story or why exactly, although I did learn that as I got older. But I thought, “Hey, that's something maybe I want to do.” And then when I went to college, my best friend also was adopted by her family. And so, I had the second person.
And also, one of the things I actually kind of wrap my mind around in one of my adoption trainings early on was that my brother also was adopted by my dad. And so, even within my own family, which is funny because I hadn't really thought of that initially, but within my own family, adoption was important and meaningful.
And then we ended up not being able to get pregnant. So, Sam and I had talked early in dating that we both thought adoption was a cool option. We were going to have biological kids and then we would adopt kids. And really kind of thinking about it as this give-back-to-the-world kind of thing. And then we ended up not being able to build our family in the biological pathway. And so, we really were at the end of a three-year journey and sort of had some big decisions to make of the next steps. And I felt really compelled that adoption was our next step.
I had a lot of misunderstandings that really became more clear over the last 11 years. So, I mean, it's taken a long time, but I thought adoption really would only be somebody who had a lot of money or maybe I wondered who would ever want me or pick me, just this teacher and a construction guy, why would we be picked? But right away, when we met with an adoption agency, we were sort of given at least some different understandings around open adoption and how adoption works. And we both felt like, “Oh, I think this is the option we're supposed to go with.” And so, that was it.
Lori:
So, you've been in these trenches 11 years and you have two daughters, right? How old are they now?
Adi:
Well, eleven and a half. Today is actually the 11-year anniversary of our daughter's adoption finalization; our oldest. And our second daughter is nine and a half.
Lori:
Okay.
Adi:
Yeah.
Lori:
Then later on, how did or when did therapeutic parenting come onto your radar? Like, did it seem like a good idea or was there something that prompted you to seek something different from what you already knew?
Adi:
Well, once again, I would say, I feel like because I was a teacher for ten years before I became a mom, some of these concepts were embedded in my educational practices; things that I had learned. I wouldn't have named it or called it therapeutic education or teaching. But some of those trauma-informed principles were part of my early education. So, I think that was sort of my stance.
I am a survivor of early life trauma. So, when we sat down at our first adoption training, we started to hear and learn about attachment and the impacts of trauma on the brain and a child. And I had a real awakening that not only was what they were talking about for the children I was going to raise, but also it was for me. And so, I had like a starting point there.
And then, jump in a few years, our daughter came home on the same day as our first adoption training. So, we were sort of thrown in without a lot of background information. And I mean, without, I guess, I had the education piece, but I would not recommend that. Now, I would be thinking, “Wow, I wish I would have had a little bit more time to prepare.” But that wasn't how it played out for us.
I remember going through a situation where I had a lot of my friends who were parenting in a more traditional way, encouraging me to follow through on a decision I had made around – It was around a pacifier. So, very young child and it wasn't working. In fact, my child was struggling more and more and more. And I remember calling our friend, Rebecca, and just explaining to her, not only the struggle of the child, but my own struggle. And she said, “Adi you've got to get back in and read The Connected Child and remember what's going on for your kiddo.” And there was just this moment of real understanding that I was not going to be able to do the same things that my friends were doing and have success and that I was going to be on a different path in parenting. And so, then I did find some friends who were into gentle parenting, which really lined up with a lot of my philosophy. And even in that I was having a lot of questions about how do I actually do this when so much of the problem is me; my own ability to stay regulated.
I love Dr. Markham, and she talks tons about parents staying regulated, parents staying calm, parents having this calm presence. And I really struggled. I didn't know how to deal with this, sometimes like rage that would come up from behavior or whatever. But I knew it was a me thing. Somewhere in there I knew. And so, Rebecca Bailey again, she suggested Brian Post and his work. And so, he said, “Hey, before you are asking your children to do anything, you got to get in and do that work yourself.” And that changed everything. And I think both my husband and I started to do more therapeutic work on our own.
And there is an actual whole model of therapeutic parenting that I didn't quite know when I first started using this term. It made sense to me that what we were experiencing as parents and as humans, it was very therapeutic in nature. And so, we just started to talk about it like that. But there is a whole model of parenting called therapeutic parenting, and it's really beautiful. So, yeah, I think it was definitely a journey and a process and introductions to lots of people who were trying to do this work.
Lori:
And you're right. One of the things that I didn't expect when I became a parent was that I was also going to have a second chance at being a child, but this time with the parent lens, because all those things, all those little wounds, big wounds, medium-sized wounds from when I was a child and my needs weren't met, I wasn't seen – and I had great parents. I'm not saying any of that – Just, you know, children are needy. Parents are limited.
Adi:
Yes.
Lori:
And we because we have so few experiences, those early experiences are just like a big percentage of everything. So, they're just so big. So, what I found when I became a parent is that I also kind of became a child. I had tantrums. I lost control. I found my wounds and I didn't know how to heal them. So, that's what I kind of hear you saying.
So, what is therapeutic parenting and how is it different from traditional parenting? You've kind of mentioned that a little bit, but explore that more.
Adi:
So, therapeutic parenting, and this is a definition from Sarah Nash – I'm not sure if that's how you say her name – is a deeply nurturing parenting style, and it's especially effective for children with attachment difficulties or those who have experienced trauma. And essentially the way I look at it is that it's – in education, we call this being a warm demander. But finding and creating a balance between holding boundaries and having the right level of expectation for a child. That knowing a child well, knowing them as a whole human being and partnering that with nurture and care and providing space and a real and authentic presence from yourself to that child or children, so that they are getting to encounter authenticity in their parent who is wanting to be in the moment with them. Whether that's the joyful and exciting and wonderful moments that come with parenthood, or it's the moment of helping a child grieve or just being with them as they're processing whatever losses come into their world.
Lori:
That kind of leads into this question. Is therapeutic parenting specifically for adoptive families?
Adi:
I don't think so. I feel like adoptive families, we have we have the window open to us because we get trained on trauma and attachment and all of these different concepts that would help us understand how much maybe our children are probably great candidates to have parenting that looks different than traditional parenting, which we hadn't talked about. But I would say traditional parenting is going to be more authoritarian, or even sometimes I hear people really celebrating love and logic, which has some principles from in it that can be conducive to therapeutic parenting, but it's just not as like driven and brain science.
And so, this idea that children are almost little adults who can function in that way and that the adult is always right and that the child would not push back at all to what the adult says. And I guess that would be some of the things I remember.
Or maybe like you had just even said, like where your needs aren't met, not because you don't have great parents, but just because they're not thinking about the fact that you have needs as a real human being.
So, I think if I would have had children biologically, I would have needed this model maybe even more because of the nature of my own wounds and where they stem from. But the therapeutic model really has helped because our children also have started in our family with their own wounds. And then, of course, they have the wounds that just naturally happen in relationship. Even when my husband and I don't get it right, which is plenty of times. I definitely want people to know that I'm a learner. I am messing this up as much as I get it right. But I really do high five myself when I get it right, because there are those really beautiful moments that we celebrate because it is different.
Lori:
Yeah, we should high five each other when we do get our right. Because we need to recognize that because it is hard. This is hard. And for every triumph, there's probably a goof or two behind that.
I know I've heard you talk before, too, about this isn't just about like the relationship and what you do. This is also about the space that you create. You've talked about a therapeutic home. So, in creating that space, how has therapeutic parenting helped heal you?
Adi:
Oh, man. You know, I was in a spiritual direction conversation this morning, and I was really reminded how much I need to slow down. And I started to cry because I feel like I have slowed down so much. And I was just naming that one of my trauma responses is to fill up my calendar and be so busy that I don't have time to grieve or experience the now. And I think the work we've done, especially, has included slowing down, not filling the calendar so much, giving space and time for any emotions that surface and having a home where there just is built-in knowing that you don't have to be on all the time. There are places in your home you want to be. There are spaces that feel soothing to your nervous system and swings in the house. Or we actually recently moved right onto the desert so we can just be in like, I feel like we're in nature all the time.
But what came out of that slowdown was not only that, yes, I have needed to slow down so that I could grieve, but also that I need to take time to celebrate how far we have come. And slowing down – I'll probably get emotional on this – but slowing down is also an opportunity for celebration. That we can enjoy the life that we have right in front of us in that moment, only when we slow down.
So, there was a real recognition for me of that healing, that the pace I kept for a lot of my life has shifted and I am still working through what that means for my life and my family. But ultimately, there is so much to celebrate and I can see it and look forward to and enjoy the celebration because I have space in my calendar and in my home to do that.
Lori:
You make so many great points about the lengths that people will go to not feel the hard feelings. There's all sorts of ways how we would calm our nervous system to not feel what's underneath the surface and what can sometimes happen is when we are courageous enough to feel them and give them the space to be felt. It's like a boogeyman in the closet. It's not quite as scary once you turn on the light.
And I'm also connecting this with watching your Instagram feed and seeing you with your family, doing spacious things, doing things out in nature, swinging, relaxing. There's just so much space in everything that I'm seeing you do.
Adi:
Yeah. And it's funny that that is what's coming up because I was really wrestling with that this morning; what is the point? And really, because I was afraid if I'm slowing down, then that's because I haven't grieved something. But what if it's that I haven't celebrated something or I haven't enjoyed something? And that is equally important in the wholeness of who we are as people. And I'm thinking, “My daughter is about ready to finish elementary school. Like, how will I help her both grieve the letting go of that milestone of childhood, but also celebrate how far she's come and the wonderful experiences she's had and the excitement for middle school?” And so, just those are fun things to kind of think about how it's all falling into place or the puzzle is becoming a picture.
Lori:
So, let's see if we can offer some skills, tools, thoughts, because you wrote a post for me, not too long ago, about therapeutic parenting and creating a therapeutic home. And you had three questions to consider about all that. Would you go over those?
Adi:
Sure. The first question that I think people can get curious about is, do my children feel safe? And that's not about like, are they safe? Because most of us can look around and say, “Yes, my children are completely safe,” but do they feel safe? And I just listened to a really great podcast. It was an educational one, but she was talking about one of the concepts of safety being around predictability alongside flexibility, which I love because it ties so much into your both end. And I it made me think specifically about one of the ways that we've done this with our girls from the time they were small is that we have our map of the day. And when they were really small, we would show them with pictures what the day would be like. And then as they've gotten older, it can be in words. And now we don't have to do it as much. But that would create a sense of predictability; we know what's coming today.
And every time I did that, if the plans changed, they were okay. The flexibility came with them knowing this is part of the day. And then, “Hey, I know that we said this was part of the day, but here's what's happened. And they could hold that tension.
When I didn't build that structure in for them and something changed or they didn't know what was coming, we were dealing with a lot more big baffling behaviors – Robin Goebel uses that terminology. I like that terminology a lot – of us saying, “What's going on? Why are they not doing this?” But they weren't feeling safe because they didn't have a settled feeling, even though everything we were doing was safe.
And so, I think just starting to get curious; what does safety mean for my child? What are their triggers? What about me? What do I feel annoyed about? What starts making me feel maybe like an unsafe presence to them? And when I'm in that space, because I'm going to be, what do I do to take care of myself so that my kids know they're safe because Mom's taking care of herself? And so, I think that's the first question.
The second question is, am I in a learner stance? Am I willing to learn about what's going on? Am I willing to get curious? I just heard someone talk about curiosity as a regulation tool. I think it was Dr. Bruce Perry, but that if you are able to get curious, you actually are regulated. So, it's one of those things that I'm trying right now when I start to get kind of stuck or rigid to say, “Okay, what can I learn here?” or “What's going on?” And I use this sentence stem – this comes straight from my therapist – “I wonder,” “I wonder if,” “I wonder.” Because it just takes away this thing that I know what you're feeling or doing or believing, but I'm curious about what you're feeling or doing or believing. So, it takes a little bit of the – I guess it like mellows the relationship a little bit. Maybe that's a good information.
And then the last one – and I actually feel like this is the most important one – is have I gone there first? Do I know what my story holds? Do I know my own wounds? Do I know my own triggers? Do I know what I'm working on healing? Do I understand why those buttons that get pushed cause me to really have a hard time? Because the more I do my own work, the more I dig into my story and I do that healing work, the more I can understand things like, hey, when my child really needs a break from the busyness of life and that makes me feel so frustrated because we had an event planned and I just am losing my mind because now I have to tell people I'm not going to do the event or I feel embarrassed or whatever it is. I can say, “Okay, this is tied to my trauma response of a busy calendar and not feeling things” and I can embrace it and love that my child has a better sense of when to stop than I did, or even do sometimes now. And so, I think that gives me space to not lose my mind or my temper and have to then do repair work that's much, much harder on the back end.
Lori:
So, let me test myself and see. The first one was felt safety; do they feel safe? And that can be facilitated when you're providing the both end of structure and nurture. You build the container but you're able to like deviate from the container if things happen and you've scaffolded that in the early stage. Is that kind of what you said?
Adi:
Yeah.
Lori:
Okay. And then the second one was a learner stance. And I'm so glad to hear you say that because I talk a lot about an open stance versus closed stance. And I talk about how openness and curiosity are married. And my therapist taught me also about the power of I wonder, I wonder. And it's how you say it. It's how you show up. It's the vibe. It's not just the word.
Adi:
I wonder if you're cranky today.
Lori:
That doesn't do it.
Adi:
That's so good to say for any of this.
Lori:
Yes.
Adi:
How we show up, our tone and what we really feel inside.
Lori:
Yeah.
Adi:
Yeah. And then the third one was, have you gone there first? And so, an awareness of what you're bringing into the situation. And I think this kind of then ties in with the next question I want to ask you, which is when we are bringing something in other than regulation. Talk about how we can regulate ourselves. What is self-regulation? What is co-regulation? How are those some of the tools that could be used in a therapeutic home?
Adi:
Yeah. So, I love the TBRI model; that's trust Based Relational Intervention for these particular – the tools and techniques that they provide. They talk about external regulation, co-regulation and self-regulation. And so, the idea would be that when a baby is very little and they get – a rupture happens, they're hungry or they have to go to the bathroom, these are every-baby experiences, that they must be externally regulated. Like you have to actually provide something to them. You have to pick the baby up and rock the baby. They can't just rock themselves. You have to breastfeed or pick up a bottle and feed the baby. You have to actually physically take off the wet diaper, put on a dry one. So, it's all external.
So, I think as a child gets older or as an adult, I have to sometimes wonder if I am in such a messy place, I can't do it on my own. What are some things I've put into place? So, my husband is someone who can externally regulate me; my children are not. And that is a messy thing that a lot of – can be kind of dysfunctional, I think, where we let children become our regulators. And that's something that hopefully people will. If you're doing that maybe that's a little curious place red flag to get with a therapist and say, “Hey, what's going on that would have my child try to soothe me,” but we need to find external regulation. So, for me, that is my faith. That's part of my walk in my spiritual walk that I have a source outside of myself to be tied to or connected to.
My husband is a partner in that work. My friends might be somebody I could lean on; “Hey, I am really struggling with – do you want to hike with me? I really need a person to be there.” And like external regulation, I think, in adulthood would be like somebody bringing you tea because you're so upset. So, they see that and they bring you something or they say, “Hey, why don't you sit down and take a breath.” Like they are the one actually directing that. So, you have some partners in life that might give you that.
Co-regulation is just that step down. So, as a child gets a little bit older, they can have you partner with them, but they can feed themselves. Maybe you provide a snack, but you don't have to actually like feed them. So, it gets kind of combined. But also, they can just like sit by you and feel how you're feeling, if you're in a good place and then they pick up on that. And then self-regulation is when they can then take it all on their own and do that without having somebody partnering with them.
But I think all through life we need co-regulation, we need friendship, we need partnership. Relationship is one of the number one way that we experience healing, especially when our wounds come from relational breaks. So, having people who can partner with you and walk with you, that's a really big deal.
Sometimes when you're at home as a mom or a dad and you're really frustrated, you don't have that person or support right next to you. So, how do you find different ways? Something that I thought had to happen was like it was all on me and I could just like, go, leave and breathe and I'd be fine. But what really has changed for me is doing my therapeutic work and actually digging in and understanding where does my grief come from, because that actually shows up as anger. And the more that I have grieved and processed and integrated my story, the less I have trouble. It still happens, but it's just much, much less that I can reach out for that co-regulation and relationship. I can receive it.
Because sometimes, we'll go into a room – Sam and I, we use a phrase, Rebecca taught it to us, I think it was tag. So, you can tell somebody, but we actually, we were like, sometimes we'll say tag because we ask for it, but sometimes we need the other person to tag us out. So, we call that reset. And so, our goal in reset is to just let that person go regulate so that they can come back, and if they're able to, they can finish the work with the child, because sometimes that's really important and sometimes it's not. And so, we have two words now; tag is when you call for help and reset is when someone recognizes it. But we have to practice that and be ready for that before it's happening. Otherwise, we just get ticked off at each other, you know?
Lori:
Yeah, there's a lot in here. I'm hearing the importance of if you're parenting with a partner, it is so helpful that you're in this together and that you're on the same page. And I do know that a lot of times, it's one parent who is trying to do something different. And so, I would suggest if you happen to be that parent and you're listening, see if you can get your partner to come in and listen to this and listen to the ways that maybe you can try something different by supporting each other, by being regulation forces for each other, by being signals for each other. When we start to miss the signals, if it's time to tap out and just all like on the same page. That just takes the weight. It spreads the weight around a little bit.
Adi:
And I think I have a girlfriend who's parenting alone; a single mom. And she and I – I'm one of her people. So, she now, when she's feeling dysregulated – we don't even live in the same state – she just sends me a text. She will, like, “Running out.” And so, then I'm that person. And so, I try to always – I'm not right with her, but I try to always validate how hard it is. What she's doing is hard work and that she's doing good things. And then as she's ready and saying, “Help,” then I can offer, “Hey, have you” – I almost always go back to what's this stirring up in you? What's going on in you? I'm wondering why you're feeling really strongly about your child's response to this or how that goes.” So, she's decided I'm a person that she can reach out to.
And I think it can be really hard and scary to find those people. And so, there are some great groups or resources online where you can start to get connected. I know one that I think is really great is The Adoption Connection. And they have an online space where it's just really safe for people to say, “This is really hard; really hard work, that I don't know how to be regulated all the time.”
Lori:
And if you don't find what you want to see, then build it, you know?
Adi:
Yeah.
Lori:
Like I'm in two adoption clubs; one's a book club and one's just a bunch of moms trying to figure things out. And so, me of us are partnered, some of us are single and we're there for each other in the ways that you're mentioning. So, there's probably some ways to start to build that with social media. But as an actual in-person relationships with people, too, or across the state lines,
Adi:
Yeah. But I do think there's something really nice, if you can find people, which can be really hard. It's been tricky for me to be able to find that. I raise the future as an organization in Colorado, and a lot of parts of Colorado have really great in-person support networks, and we had one for a while. And so, anyway, I'm meeting with our coach on Monday and we're going to try and brainstorm how to get some families back together. Because it is really it's really important to find people who want to try and parent this way because it's different than what you received. And so, you first have to kind of give yourself – you have to start learning how to give yourself those things so that then you can give them to your children.
Lori:
The regulation, the self-regulation and the co-regulation is the – The other nice thing is that as you're practicing this and doing it and getting over all better, it's probably been up and down, but hopefully overall an ascent on that. But as you're doing that, you're also modeling for your child and they're seeing you take care of yourself. They're seeing you back out when you are full. They notice everything. And I think even stronger than anything you tell them is what you show them.
Adi:
Yeah. Maurice caught than taught. I've been hearing that a lot of places. A lot of places. And they are watching and they're picking up on and integrating what we show them. And so, that's also that good part of the self-compassion that I've had to work a lot on. When I don't get it right, when I mess it up, when I am not therapeutic in my parenting and I go back to that place of, “I'm still a worthy, beautiful human being deserving of another chance. And I am doing the work to try to make my home a safe place so that my kids can do the healing they need to do and they can enter this world in and contribute in beautiful ways.” And that's the hope. You know?
Lori:
Self-compassion can be so powerful, especially if we didn't have that modeled for us.
Adi:
Right.
Lori:
If we can figure it out and model that for our kids, then they will end up with some self-compassion to knock on wood, hopefully.
Adi:
Knock on wood. Yes.
Lori:
What are some of the challenges of therapeutic parenting?
Adi:
I think one is just what I was kind of just saying; it feels easy to mess it up. And it's so slow moving. You don't always see results quickly. And I think especially, sometimes you have your child in crisis and you just want to fix everything but – Well, that's how I want to. I definitely have a fixer tendency – And the reality is that the thing most of us need when we're in the hardest places is just to have someone be there with us and hear us and see us and yeah, I guess, just be with us. And so, that can be really, really hard because it takes away the sense of control or thinking that I can do something about it.
So, I think that's one of the trickiest parts. I mean, I think when I've grown and that was really tricky, was just not understanding how much my story was bleeding into the behavior and chaos in the home. And so, like feeling like I wasn't doing things right because I couldn't stay regulated and realizing, well, it's because I just had stuff that needed to be worked through.
And then even just sometimes that work; that phrasing like, “Do your work,” “Work it out” and not knowing what that even meant and learning, that means I had losses I needed to grieve and that I had relationships that were ruptured and there never was repair. And so, I had to work through what that meant now. I had to think about models I had seen and built into myself; some of the self-loathing or some of that lack of self-compassion. And I had to learn some new tools and ways to talk to myself. I had to build scripts and practice them and say them even when I didn't believe them.
But one thing that's really cool is now, sometimes I'll have one of those old scripts pop up or those old messages pop up. It's a script. It's what I heard. And I'll think, “Oh my gosh, that's a lie. That's not true.” And it'll still be like going in my head, but I'll know it's not true.
Lori:
Are you able to give us a quick example of an old script and a new script?
Adi:
Yeah, like one – I had one happen where it was one of those days. I had a plan and we had an activity and my family was tired and they did not want to do the plan. And so, it was we were going to go skiing and it was like we were going to do this and get on the mountain skiing. And all three of my family members were like, “We don't want to.” And I, actually I could feel it, so I left. And I walked into my office and I sat down and I just started crying. And what I heard was, “Nobody likes you. Nobody likes you. Nobody wants to do anything with you. Nobody likes you.” That's very sounds very young to me. That sounds very six-year-old-ish, “Nobody likes you.” And I just remember hearing like, “That's not true. They are just tired. They just don't want to go skiing. It's not that they don't like me. They love me. They think I'm great. They're tired and don't want to go skiing. It's fine.” But I had to really feel it.
And I also kind of let myself feel it. I cried pretty hard. My husband came to check on me and I just said, “I know what I'm feeling is old stuff. I need to just feel it. I'm going to be okay.” And it was nice that he came and checked on me. And so, I cried for a little bit and I named it that it wasn't true. And then I was able to go and have a really nice, very calm afternoon with my family.
Lori:
That is so illuminating. Thank you for sharing that with us. I've had moments like that too, where it's like, whoa. Once you take just the minute to figure out what that was and kind of drop your awareness level from where it usually is to let some more of the unknown be known. I'm using my hands. Nobody else can see but Adi.
Adi:
Yeah.
Lori:
But you find it's kind of like when the water goes down in a reservoir or something, all of a sudden, all this junk is there and you can see what you what you've had buried for a while. And then when you dredge it up, it has less power. It might still come back again. But each time it does, it's going to have less power.
Adi:
Especially when you can say that's not true.
Lori:
Yeah.
Adi:
And I remember – one thing I loved about my – this is why I love therapy. This is why I think it's great. My therapist taught me was thinking about the way your messages come to you. Listen to the actual words you use and then think developmentally; what age of a child talks that way? Because it gives you some insight. You don't have to know exactly where it came from. I think sometimes we get stuck on like, where did that come from? You don't have to exactly know, but you can just say, “That's from when I was little because of how it's coming to me. And okay, there were probably times when I was six that I felt like nobody liked me and that nobody knew I felt like that.”
And so, eventually, part of that is like saying, “Sam, I felt like nobody liked me. I know that's not true.” And then he can validate, “You're right. It's not true. We're just tired. We love you. We do like you,” but it gives you this chance to just understand. Any six-year-old might have felt like that. And if nobody saw it or named it or processed it, it can just still be sitting there.
Lori:
That's such a great example that you gave about what I was trying to talk about earlier of when you were six or whatever, this was a big thing. It was huge. And then when you looked at it again, from a grown-up perspective, that that perspective shift where now you're big and you can see the problem as smaller, once you see the problem. So, that was great. Are there any other challenges of therapeutic parenting that you want to touch on?
Adi:
Well, I think we talked about the one other one that's really tough is just when you're parenting with a partner, how hard it can be on your marriage. It can just be hard on your marriage to, first of all, be learning this whole new method of parenting. So, it's not the exact same way as your parents. And so, sometimes that creates like family of origin conflict, too, because people don't always understand why you're choosing to do something differently. I think it can be really hard to be on the same page. One of you might be learning at a different rate than the other or having a different experience with it than the other.
And also, you're kind of pouring out and creating a big space for your children because their needs are big. And so, remembering that like your partner or your spouse is somebody that you need to also create space and time for. That you need to go on dates. You need to figure out how to connect with them so that, well, like you said, that's another thing we're modeling for our children is how we're doing relationship at an adult level; do I see my husband and his needs and do I have compassion for his mess ups and do I co-regulate with him and do I just cheer him on and take time to celebrate him? I'm not sure I always do great at that. That's actually something, this year, Sam and I are really trying to re-circle around and say like, “How can we make us better so our kids have this other really great example. How do we talk to each other in a way that's kind and generous? Because sometimes that's, yeah, he's my co-regular so he gets to hold all my yucky behavior and then not get like, the cool wife that he married, you know? I'm pretty cool. He needs to get to hang out with me in that mode, not just like be my co-regulator.
Lori:
Yeah, it sounds like part of creating this therapeutic home is creating a space where people can be authentic, which also means being vulnerable, which means the therapy part is removing our defenses, but we don't want to be like completely wide open all the time. So, that probably brings in a little bit of work on boundaries, instead of replacing defenses and reading people and attuning with your partner as well as your kids. It's just it's a lot. It's a lot of emotional intelligence.
Adi:
Yeah. Yeah, you just laid that out. Yeah, because it's that way with your friends, too, right? I put that in my bio because I was like, “It's the same.” How can you be a good friend if you're – You don't want to just, like, go show up with your friends and just, like, dump all this, you know –
So, that's also why I think therapy is really, really beneficial because I have a person that I pay to go take all this hard stuff, when there are hard. Like a lot of times, right now, I see my therapist once every eight weeks just for check in. That's what we need. That's all I need right now. It's awesome. I love that stage. But there are times when I need her every week and she's the person I'm bringing all the hard things to, so that Sam doesn't have to be that and my friends don't have to be that.
So, I think it is making sure we also – that's part of the boundaries that the setting that you're talking about where you're my friend and I want to hang out with you and enjoy life with you too. I know you're going to carry things with me, but you don't have to be everything to me. But I don't have to be – I think that's the other thing – I don't have to be everything to my kids. Like, I want to make sure I have other people pouring in and investing.
And that's been a hard one for me too. Like when people don't always have these understandings or skills, how do I – Well, my kids have great relationships with people who don't have therapeutic parenting as their vision. It's totally possible. And it's beautiful.
Lori:
Beautiful. Yes. We're rounding the corner here. And I'm going to ask you the question we are ending with all Season 4 interviews with. Adi, how do you think that parents can best support adoptees in building healthy identities and healthy connections from the start?
Adi:
Well, I feel like this has been something that I've had kind of come up a lot lately. And I think it kind of ties to your episode with the two men who found out late in life that they were adopted. And I would just say that making sure children know as much as you know of their story at that developmentally appropriate age. But I think Heather Forbes, we learned it was, she says, by age 12. And as an educator and a person who loves child development, I would agree that as I watched the sixth graders at the middle school I work at start to really work through their identity and they really shift from adults and parent people being the most important relationship in their perspective to their peers, I feel like making sure that your children have a clear understanding of everything that you know and can offer to around this their story, whether that's from their adoption story or things that happened in your home when they were small so that they know like, hey, I have had to work on some anger things. And when you were small, I yelled a lot and I didn't know how to do that. And so, I need you to know that sometimes if I am yelling, that might make you feel afraid because it has this old connotation. I've been working a lot on that.
And just making sure kids understand that even maybe I don't really yell now, but I did before. And so, helping them just make sense of why a teacher that yells might really be a big trigger for them and they'll make that sense of their own understanding.
But I guess just making sure children have as much of their story that you have to offer them. And I guess that makes a lot of sense to me that before they start entering and really working through identity development or their adolescent years, that they would have that. And that way they can allow all of those pieces of the puzzle to create the picture of who they are.
Lori:
And the therapeutic parenting piece gives them the freedom to put those pieces together and be authentic. And with you standing by to help co-regulate them when they need things. So, that's very helpful. I really appreciate your sharing your journey. I can tell, just in this conversation, you've made quite a journey for yourself for the sake of your daughters. And I want to clap for you and pat you on the back through the Zoom. So, we got to celebrate those things.
Adi:
Thanks, Lori.
Lori:
Lots of work. You have dropped a lot of gemstones here today, too. So, I want listeners to know that we will be putting in the show notes a lot of the Ryan Post, the Rebecca Varley, the Therapeutic Parenting and the other website, Robin Goebel, the Late Discovery Adoptee podcast you mentioned, the connected child, Heather Forbes. If you missed any of those names on the way through, I've been taking notes, so we will have those in the show notes. Make sure you to go to adopting.com to find those. And Adi, thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your experience and growth in therapeutic parenting.
Adi:
Lori, thank you so much for having me and being a voice and an ally for people who are adopted. I think it's –
Lori:
This is a great space to be in.
Adi:
Yeah, it's awesome.
Lori:
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