Episode 3 Podcast > Full Transcript
Emily:
Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of All My Love: Stories of Hope, Inspiration & Support from A Birth Mother. On today's episode, I have a pretty cool friend with me. So, I'm just going to let her jump in and introduce herself.
Hokulani:
Hello, my name is Hokulani Ellis. I've known Emily for years; through high school, middle school, in and out. We met for reals, for reals in LDS Services when both of us were pregnant. Emily chose to parent. And at the time, I was choosing to parent at the same time. So, we had that in common. Both of our kids are couple of months apart.
And basically, I don't know, I always thought that I was going to parent. So, I just knew right off the bat. There was kind of no hesitation or question. I just felt it.
Emily:
So, at LDS Family Services, did you ever think about placement or adoption? Did you learn anything about it or did you just kind of sit and listen and go home and like, “Hmm, this is my baby and I'm not going to do anything about it. This is my baby.”
Hokulani:
Yeah, I think it was like a friend of mine. She was like, “Yeah, you need to go there, so you'd know about your options.” And before I was like, “Yeah, I'm going to parent my child.”
So, I was there anyways. I learned a lot about adoption. I learned a lot about open – I didn't know that there were open adoptions and like closed adoptions and just the whole – I thought it was like, okay, you give up your baby and that was that. And there's like so many like terminology; you know, the way you say like, “Place your child” or, you know, that was huge to me; like words do carry a lot of meaning.
So, that was big and learning about the different stories and how everybody's relationships can be different; it's not like by the book. So, that was really cool.
Yeah, I ended up just parenting and I was a single mom for a little bit. And then I met my husband and had two more babies. I technically have three more babies.
Emily:
Technically have three. Okay. So, it was like the perfect segue though; from your introduction.
So, I decided that I wanted to Hoku on and speak with me because when I tell people about placement, even when I was pregnant, talking about my plans to place, post placement, any time I would run into anybody and they would bring up adoption and placement, like the very first words out of their mouths are always, “Oh, I'd love to be a surrogate. I've always wanted to be a surrogate.”
And for me, as a birth mom, it's kind of hard because I'm like, “Bruh, I didn't choose to get pregnant with this baby.” But obviously, there were actions involved that got me into a situation there. But also, you know, sometimes situations, you don't have a choice.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
But like, I kind of take a little bit of offense when people are like, “I want to be a surrogate” and I'm like, “Well, guess what? That's cool, but that's not relevant because I'm a birth mom.”
So, over to you. Why are you here?
Hokulani:
I think that along the terms of just knowing the language of like adoption and also like getting into gestational care, there is a whole language. I was saying, “I want to be a surrogate mother; surrogacy, surrogacy, surrogacy”, whatever. But what I wanted to do was to carry an embryo; somebody else's DNA, sperm, egg, totally separate from my body.
And what I've learned is that surrogacy, traditional surrogacy, is when there is a different sperm, sperm of one of the family or maybe they even have a sperm donor and it would have been my egg. So, basically, it would be part of my DNA with somebody else's. And then I would, with the intention of just handing them over the baby; like this is their baby with my DNA.
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
Yeah. So, surrogacy is technically your egg, somebody else's sperm with the intention of handing them over their baby. What you wanted to do before, even though {crosstalk 7:16}.
Emily:
So, it's like planned and intentional.
Hokulani:
Intentional, yeah.
Emily:
I feel like that is the biggest thing to get across in this, when we're talking about the differences between gestational carrying and adoption, is that in most adoption cases, an expectant mother wasn't expecting to be expected.
Hokulani:
Yes.
Emily:
And so, here it was a choice. And so, from the very beginning, how do you feel like that feels different from those moments when you found out you were pregnant with your daughter in high school and like adoption was an option?
Hokulani:
Like it was so different. It was complete opposites. Like everything was so – it sprang on me. I didn't find out I was pregnant till close to 12 weeks and everything; hormones are going on and you're confused and you're trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
But also just like knowing that there's your DNA; like your child that you are having to make these decisions for, then going into being a gestational carrier. Everything is totally about the family that you're doing. They're deciding. They're paying for the like the science and the procedures behind it. And you're literally just there to carry and love this baby and protect them as they're growing in you. And then you get to watch them get their baby. And that's like the coolest thing ever.
Emily:
Oh, good.
Hokulani:
So, it was emotions; there's definitely a lot of emotions. I love them. I love the baby; love, love her so much. But it was more like I'm an aunt and that never once for a second it was possessive or mine.
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
So, I think knowing that, months of planning beforehand, emotionally preparing myself beforehand.
Emily:
Now, what goes into all of that; what goes into that emotional prep beforehand? Because obviously, in adoption cases, unexpected, unwed mothers, I mean, potentially wed mothers. I'm not here to stereotype anybody, but, you know, like there's no prep. Obviously, you kind of find out you're pregnant and you have that “Oh shit” moment.
So, explain to me what kind of preparation did you do before your gestational carrying?
Hokulani:
So, it was months of talking to my husband about it. And then we found an agency, talked with them briefly, then they kind of gave us the rundown of, “You have to go to a psychiatrist and you have to fill out like a personality thing and go through a psych eval”, just to make sure that this is the right route for us, for our marriage, for me individually, for him individually.
And then once those are kind of checked out and we still want to go through with it, the possibilities are always brought up during it, like the worst case scenario; what if I die, what if something happens and you know.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
But after all that, it's months of preparing. In a lot of cases, from what I've heard from my agency, and they even gave me the option for counseling throughout my pregnancy. And after, I did get some counseling after for postpartum. And that was so needed.
Emily:
That’s amazing; that you still were offered all of that help and support. Like I love all of the similarities between the two, but I also very much respect the differences.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
Okay. So, then when you were getting ready and you were – I mean, in adoption cases with an expectant mother, we get on websites, we scroll through profiles. So, when you were starting this process, were you able to go through profiles and choose a couple or did a couple come to you? Were there multiple hands pushing you guys together? How does how did you find your couple?
Hokulani:
My family.
Emily:
Your family.
Hokulani:
I actually did not look for them. They don't give us the option. At least with the agency that we were working with. We filled out like a pretty extensive, like, survey of what type of people that were willing to work with; like what are our views on like just pregnancy in general, how we're going to carry out our healthcare, you know, what are those relationships going to be like?
And I think that's kind of the same with adoptive and birth moms; what type of relationship that you're hoping for after the baby's here. So, that was a big deal. Like what race, if it was a heterosexual or homosexual couple, those are the questions that they kind of ask. But then the agency took our surveys and then they kind of matched up with what they thought was best, the people that they had looking for a surrogate gestational carrier.
I don't even know why I said that one.
Emily:
Oh, my gosh. I haven’t even said that for so long.
Hokulani:
What the heck?
Emily:
I love that that happened though.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
I mean, and I wasn’t checking up on my words.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
Because I mean, even as a birth mom, even as people who know the terminology; like we're not here to just be like, “Get it right or we're not friends.” It's like, “Oh, even sometimes I slip up, but let me correct myself.”
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
So, it's not ever coming from like a place of know better. I'm better. I'm above you.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
It's definitely one of those terms that like I catch myself saying because I want people to know like gestational carrier, if I just say that, not a lot of people have an idea of what that is.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Unlike the surrogate gestational carrier. And just kind of like put that out. Or I shouldn’t, because it’s definite.
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
Anyways, Yeah. So, the agency, they contact the family and then they're like, “Hey, there's this person; if you want to email them or like write them a letter.” And then we do like a very quick (not in-person). And then we do like a video chat with the agency. So, like a three-way chat. And then she kind of gave us the option to email her individually to be like, “I am feeling this family” or “I'm not.” And both of us right off the bat, like the second that we saw them, they were like long lost cousins; like we just knew that they were part of our family already. Like, these are the people that’s part of our lives. Yeah.
Emily:
I love that because I feel like that's the same kind of feeling, as a birth mom or as an expectant mother – You're not a birth mom until post-placement – as an expectant mother, I feel like that's kind of the feeling that I was looking for when I was scrolling through profiles, trying to find that.
But I feel like one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to bring you on and kind of talk about the differences and the similarities, too, is that, you know, I'm not trying to be a bossy person or trying to tell people how to run their lives. But, like, I truly feel like your child is going to find their way to you and that there are so many different avenues to find that.
Hokulani:
Oh, yeah.
Emily:
And like, I know that this is for adopting.com and this is a big adoption – It's for an adoption website.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
But I also like I want to be here to be able to provide resources for hopeful adoptive parents – Hopeful parents, not just hopeful adoptive parents – trying to help them hear those details and hear those differences. And so I love that you are able to just bring it all out.
Hokulani:
I think it is really cool when sometimes it just clicks.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And you know.
Emily:
It just clicks. It's just I struggle with it, because I hate the word “meant to be” because like at least in the adoption world, that's like all of my trauma was meant to be for this baby to be here. But also like to a certain degree, it really is, because once you find those people, you're like, “Yes.”
Hokulani:
It's such a painful meant-to-be; like there's so many things that happen in somebody's life where it kind of is meant to be years down the road.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
You don't realize it. But in the moment, it's so painful and so heart wrenching. So, the term “meant to be” is, it really is a tough one.
Emily:
Yeah, that's {indistinct 12:37}. It's a crazy term.
Hokulani:
Yeah. Not like I know it, but it sucks.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
It really does.
Emily:
It does.
So, then how did it work when it came time for delivery? I know that a lot of birth mothers, expectant mothers, you know, they have different things that they like. Sometimes they want the family there with them in the hospital. Sometimes they don't want the adoptive parents there until after the whole show is over.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
So, I mean, how did you work that out with this family?
Hokulani:
Well, I knew, right off the bat, that I wanted both of them there. I didn't have any, like, feelings of wanting to have some alone time with baby or just like wanting any type of, like, skin to skin right off the bat, just because I was just psyched for them to meet their baby. Like in my brain there was no {indistinct 13:35}.
Emily:
Because I mean, I'm a huge analogy person, and so I just like to explain things in almost the simplest version so that anybody and everybody can understand what my brain is thinking.
So, in a way, would you say that, like, you didn't have that connection, you didn't want that skin to skin, you didn’t want that instant holding? Because, I mean, these two were the bakers; they put together those ingredients. And like, I don't mean this in any offensive term, but you were the oven.
Hokulani:
I was definitely the oven. I was happy as hell to be the oven.
Emily:
And when you pull your desserts out of the oven, you don’t sit it there on the oven or like on top of the stove. You take it and you eat and you enjoy it.
Hokulani:
That's exact. Yeah. That was such a good analogy. So good. That was exactly it. That was like, I love this baby. Yeah, we're so excited. This whole process is for them to hold her and to love her and to be the parents. And that is like the greatest thing with my children that I had, just to have those first seconds, those first minutes of just really loving them were, you know, right? Just take a moment.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And I think that was so special and I wanted them to experience that. So, unfortunately, with Covid, only one of the dads got to be there. So, we had a video camera. I had my husband in there, in the room with me, just for my support. And then one of the dads was in there. He was FaceTiming as he was watching. And then my husband was videotaping, so they can have like a record. So, the other dad would stand in the lobby having. It's just so hard when you can't be in there.
Emily:
I know. Everything has been so challenging with the pandemic.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
And it changes everything.
Hokulani:
It really does. They’re troopers. They actually came to Utah two weeks prior, so they could quarantine and then they just, like, hung out in Utah forever. So, it was good. Yeah.
Emily:
Okay. It's awesome. All right. So, then, obviously, like, was there paperwork involved at all? Because I know that with placement, we have relinquishment paperwork. But you were a gestational carrier; you we're just the oven. Like did you have to sign any type of paperwork, any relinquishment stuff or was it like, “No, this really is their baby from the moment she hits oxygen”?
Hokulani:
Yes.
So, with paperwork, there's a ton of paperwork, but we do that, right off the bat, paperwork before we even like get things going. Basically, just lots of like contracts saying, “This is what we're going to do. This is what I'm willing to do if it doesn't work out the first time.”
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
And then they had their attorneys. Mine was in Utah, because the laws are different between states. In Utah – So, the paper was basically saying, like, I had to sign, but there was like a time frame. So, I was pregnant. I had to sign the paperwork saying that I'm pregnant. And then, like, within a certain amount of time, I had to sign something out saying that they were the parents. But I had to wait, like after the heartbeat to confirm the pregnancy. I should have looked this up before we started.
Emily:
That's okay. That's okay.
Hokulani:
Yeah. So, there is like a loophole. So, basically, all the paperwork has to be done before baby is here. If the paperwork isn't done and I somehow have the baby and she's alive and well and doing well, she would fall under my name and then we would have to do kind of like a transference of – They would have to kind of adopt their own baby.
Emily:
If the paperwork isn’t done before.
Hokulani:
If the paperwork isn't done, then they would have to do a different route and have to adopt back their baby, because it would first fall under like my baby. Yeah.
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
So, there's like the paperwork before and then there's a period where like they can't check the heartbeat or like they can't determine…
Emily:
So, that whole scientific, “You know it's a human, but right now it's just cells and…”
Hokulani:
Yeah.
So, now we're like waiting. So, there's a couple of weeks where I was like – and then after that we didn't get the paperwork. And if for some reason – I don't know who would want to do that. So, I mean, like, if you're going into a gestational carrier, you're obviously wanting to just bake their baby for them.
Emily:
Make and bake.
Hokulani:
Make a baby for them. But sometimes, they're like some people would just like have that all done and then just dip. And then if they were to have their baby without finishing on the paperwork, they would have to adopt back their baby; like they would have to fight for their own –
Emily:
They will have to like legally fight for their child.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
A custody battle.
Hokulani:
Yeah, at least in Utah.
Emily:
Custody battle against an oven, right?
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
That's insane. So, again, I'm not trying to be offensive towards anybody. You're not all ovens. I wish I would have, like, researched just before you came on.
Hokulani:
Yeah, I was shocked. I was like, “I don't know why people would do that.” But it happens.
Emily:
Yeah, I know. That's nuts. Okay.
So, then now, I mean adoption; we have open adoption. Is there such thing as open surrogacy or open gestational carrying?
Hokulani:
Yes. And thank God, because they're so great. They're so great. From the moment, we kind of knew that we wanted to, obviously, in our paperwork, we wanted things to be open. I was hoping for like maybe a Christmas card or once a year when she's is like on a birthday, just like, you know, some contact. But they have, like, been so good at sending me pictures or videos every once in a while. And I'll call them, share things with my family.
Emily:
Okay.
Hokulani:
So, every couple of weeks, if not more, we're talking. It's just fun. Yeah, it's fun to – They're almost like our other brothers and she's a niece. And we're just long lost cousins just down the road.
Emily:
I love it.
Okay. So, what things do you think – We're just going to go back into differences here – We're not here to, like, discount anybody's experience. We're not here to say anybody is wrong or right. But for you, what do you feel like, as a gestational carrier, what was easier about gestational carrying than placing?
Hokulani:
The first thing that pops in my head is the conversation we had about our own kids. If there's kids that know what's going on in your body, they can see you changing, growing the baby, and then having to explain what's happening with the baby, when it's not going to be here afterwards.
Emily:
Yeah, yeah.
Hokulani:
And I think that is like so huge because, as an adult, you know what's going on. You made the decisions.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And to explain that to a child. In our family, what we experienced, basically put out, it was like, “I’m an oven. I get to cook this baby for another family” and right from the get go.
Emily:
Before they even saw anything growing. Was it before…?
Hokulani:
It was even months before the baby even happened. In months; like there's shots and things going on.
Emily:
Before insemination. Would they call it like an implant? Egg implant?
Hokulani:
Embryo transfer; transfer.
Emily:
Embryo transfer. Okay. I really like it's the tip of my tongue just keeps wanting to say turkey baster. I had to say it once. I had to say it once to get it out. I'm done. I'm not going to say that word anymore. I held it and this whole time.
Hokulani:
Yeah, the transfer date.
Emily:
Transfer date. Okay.
Hokulani:
Like months before, you know, we have to do the hormones and stuff. So, that was when we started with, “This is what's going on. I'm preparing my body to carry that baby for a different family; not ours. But we're going to love her.”
So, I think that is a huge, huge difference, if there is.
Emily:
Yeah. Just all that prep with yourself and everybody else involved; like, you know, there's no surprises.
Hokulani:
Yeah, surprises like the other huge difference. There's months and months and months preparing, putting in applications, dealing with an agency or even just doing – You know, I've had people just say that they've linked up with a family member in having to do this process.
There's also legal work. And there's also like the signing. They have to have those conversations before that's what's going to happen.
Emily:
Yeah.
Did you have any worries or doubts going into it?
Hokulani:
No, no. It felt really good; like they just felt true, authentic. And that's what were kind of wanting. There are cases where I think in a lot of times where there's people that basically just throw the money at a gestational carrier and they're like, “Do other work. Deal with the doctor; whatever. And then we'll just be there when the baby's born.” And if that's the way that they need to emotionally prepare for this or that is the way that they handle and that's fine. That’s what they do. But in my case, we wanted to have this connection with family and that's what we have.
So, I hope that like in adoption, that's so much more intimate. It is your baby. You want to make sure that they're going to safe home and you want to see what their home is like, see what their hands are like.
Emily:
So, would you say that, like with gestational carrying, what you were doing, your choices, everything that you were doing was for the parents of that child rather than for the thinking about, “How do I make sure that this baby's life is the best that it can be?”
Hokulani:
Yep. I think you put that perfectly.
Emily:
You don't have to think it like that. I mean, obviously you're growing a whole human for somebody, but like your responsibility in that matter is literally baking.
Hokulani:
Yeah, just trusting your body to do what it does.
Emily:
Trusting your body to do what it does. And then because it's not your DNA, it's not your – It's like you're plugged in.
Hokulani:
That's exactly right.
Emily:
Like you're not going to be concerned about a light socket, if you're plugging that in to make light. But if you're trying to grow a plant that you planted from the seed; like you're so much more emotionally invested and like –
Hokulani:
And then – Yeah.
Emily:
All right.
Hokulani:
Huge difference. It really is. As much as I cared and love for this baby, it was,
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
I don't make the decisions for her.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Like if you're going to vaccinate or not, like that's your choice. This is your baby.
Emily:
Yeah, this is your baby; do what you want.
Hokulani:
So, I think that is the difference. My responsibility is to do what they want to do for this baby and to make sure that I was doing what I could for this baby.
Emily:
So, you didn’t like ever feel any contention towards their choices. Like, I mean, and obviously this is still, I just, sometimes I have control issues, but like you and I were talking about last night, I was like, “Oh man, I'm jealous that one of my family members gets to go see my daughter and I don't.” Like you don't ever have that kind of – Like you love her and you're attached to her, but it's not like, “My family gets to see her and I don't, what the heck?”
Hokulani:
Yeah. No, no. Even though, like, they spent a lot of time here in Utah before and after the baby was born. So, they're awesome. They wanted to bring my family. And I was like, “Great, let's you know.” So, they know they have {indistinct 25:17} like gifts and things. But really, there is no – It was just like there is no like ownership or feeling like it was possessive; like my baby.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
It really is just their family. From the beginning, it was their family. They came and visited and now they're leaving.
Emily:
Okay, I love that. I love the way you put that. So, now we're going to get like a little deep here, though.
Hokulani:
Okay.
Emily:
I mean, not too deep, but what was the hardest part about this for you?
Hokulani:
It took a toll on my marriage.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Yeah. And I don't want to admit that just because, well, yeah, nobody wants to admit that anything was hard on my marriage.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And we were struggling. But for sure, I was disconnected from my body. Pregnancy before, it was like kind of bringing us together.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And now that there's this other baby growing in there and I love that baby, but it was like he {crosstalk 26:19 – 21}. I don't know how rated this {crosstalk 26:23 – 24}. If that's not appropriate, you can just delete that out. But I mean, I think it's funny. It's one webinar.
The baby was a barrier between us. It wasn't something that brought us together. Obviously, like my husband was on board and he loved his baby, too. But yeah, definitely intimacy lacked a lot. And then postpartum.
Emily:
Oh, wow.
Hokulani:
I was prepared because I got postpartum with all other three of my babies. So, I knew what I was going into. And then it resurfaced in a totally different way without having a baby there.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Body image is weird as hell.
Emily:
Oh, yeah, I'm still there.
Hokulani:
Yeah. And I think that's a huge, you know, you have this post-baby body and there's no baby.
Emily:
And there's no baby to show for it.
Hokulani:
And I don't know. I think it would be – I can only imagine the emotional pain going through it and then having to walk around, like physically, just feel all this beautiful work that your body did, but also just really nothing to hold on to afterwards. I think that would be so hard.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
It's so hard, just thinking about. You know, I had a post-baby body without a baby. And it was like I almost went through this manic phase where I was like, “But it's fine. Yeah, like I did this great thing for this other family” and then totally skipped over. I was like, “But I'm fine. I'm fine.”
Emily:
So, do you think that, like, you had some sort of grief to work through there; whether it's like grief for the body that you had before or grief for the positivity you felt. And it's still like you still had to work through grief.
Hokulani:
Yeah, grief for my body for sure. And then like this weird sense of like wanting to share with people almost to like validate my body; validate where my body was.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
But like the difference between, in my head, like it was always a positive thing that I got to share.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
It felt positive to me.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And adoption, it is positive, but sometimes it's probably, for what I could imagine, not feel like it's sometimes different.
Emily:
There's sometimes {crosstalk 33:31} really freaking blows.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
But you know the majority, 95 percent of the time, it's awesome. That five percent is rough.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
But just like sharing something.
Hokulani:
Yeah. It's weird. I feel like women, at least for me, I'm speaking for myself. I feel like I do have to have an excuse for –
Emily:
For not being perfect.
Hokulani:
You're right. Yeah.
And then this weird like hormonal phase and of going after it without baby {indistinct 29:11 – 14}. So, that was, yeah, grief. I would have never put a word to it, but yeah, I think I was going through a little bit of grief, not with like baby.
Emily:
Yeah, obviously.
And I mean, like, this is one thing that talking with my therapist, she was like, “You can go through grief about anything. Like, I understand that you're probably still experiencing grief because you haven't bounced back as quickly as you wanted to. And that's okay to grieve about. You're okay to have these feelings.”
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
But then I get that one too though, because I feel like this is just the world. The world has conditioned us to think this way and everybody has to be this perfect little body. And when I see people at the store, in my head, I think, “Wow. Okay. Am I bigger or my smaller than them? I'm going to compare myself to them. I'm going to pass judgment.”
But then if I see a woman with a baby with a few extra pounds, then it's like, “Oh, look at her.” And it's like a beautiful thing that she has these lumps and rolls.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
And so, I understand completely because going out in public and things are still – there's still a couple of muffin tops here and there. My rolls that I was talking about earlier. It's like you feel like you have to tell people over and over, “I did this. I did this. But I just don't have the proof right here in front of me.”
Hokulani:
Yeah, everyone gives a little bit of grace for a new mother. Or even if they didn't have that baby physically themselves and they're just carrying around a new baby, it's like you automatically just have this difference in body image.
Emily:
Yeah, talking about body image. Hey, you know what? It's okay.
Hokulani:
Very valid.
Emily:
You know we had the last podcast on the left. We just went on a tangent. Back to {indistinct 31:07}.
Hokulani:
Back to {indistinct 31:09}. Getting back on track.
Emily:
Oh, man. All right. Well, so then, you know, I just kind of like to close my episodes with words of love, support and advice for all members of the Triad. But because you are here, I want you to kind of add in. We can do words of advice for hopeful adoptive parents and also couples looking to get a paired with their gestational carriers. What words do you have for them?
Hokulani:
Oh, my gosh, the ideas that really come to my mind is like families look so different. And everybody's family is beautiful as it is. Sometimes, as dysfunctional as it is. I don't know.
Emily:
I mean, so would you say that like, you know, families are beautiful.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
They're all different.
Hokulani:
They're all different.
Emily:
And they all come together in different ways.
Hokulani:
Yeah, they definitely need to be.
Emily:
So, there's more to becoming a parent than conceiving or adopting.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
There are so many other options out there.
Hokulani:
Yeah. So many avenues. So many avenues.
Emily:
Like your baby is there, waiting to find you. And they are going to find you.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
I feel like your baby and you and your family and your adoptive family or birth moms or whatever would have teamed up in the previous life and you guys made a plan and now you're in it and you don't know. And you're blindfolded right now.
Emily:
Yes, I love that.
Hokulani:
But things aren’t going to line up the way that sometimes you decided to in your previous life.
Emily:
All right. I love that. Okay.
So, what words would have for any potential expectant mothers, birth mothers or those looking into surrogacy or gestational carrying; someone who's going to be growing a baby?
Hokulani:
For one, just like stay grounded, know who your support system is. Lean on them. They want you to. And really just trust the process; whatever process you're going through. There's help out there. There's like professional help. They know what you're going to be feeling and it's okay to feel everything. You should feel everything. And then just trust that it's going to line up the way it needs to.
Emily:
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. That was like one of the hardest things for me; like leading up to placement. It was like, “Is this all going to work out? What if they back out? What if I, all of a sudden, flip a switch and decide I don't want to do this anymore?” Like I don't think I would, but what if I do?
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
So, I love that; stay grounded.
And then lastly, what words would you have for adoptees or in this case, these babies that come from gestational carriers? Like when they ask about how they got here, where's their oven?
Hokulani:
Me personally, I think, just to keep things simple. Just to be honest.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
There's a lot of work and there's a lot of heartache and things that you went through to get that baby here. And I think just being open with them is the first. Of course, they would feel left. Just knowing that you went through all the work to get them there; whatever the route is.
Emily:
What is the correct term for a baby that has resulted – What is that? Like adoptee is to birth mom, as desert out of the oven is to gestational carrying.
Hokulani:
Oh, I don't really know.
Emily:
{crosstalk 34:47} for your little baby desert that you baked in the oven.
Hokulani:
I have it on like papers. Can we pause this for a minute again?
Emily:
Yeah, we can pause that.
Hokulani:
Let me – because we always just called them dads. They're dads.
Emily:
Well, not the dads. I'm talking about the baby.
Hokulani:
The baby.
Emily:
The thing that you created; what words do you have for her?
Hokulani:
Oh.
Emily:
Words of support for her; towards her.
Hokulani:
Like for a baby. {crosstalk 35:11 – 15}.
Emily:
Like the purpose of that question is like I want to be able to give support to everybody involved in the Triad. So, like when I asked it/answered it for myself, it was like adoptees; like I know that you can be upset about your story and I just want you to know that you're loved and that your birth mom did this for you.
So, like, if this baby was ever to come to you and be like, “You're like my mom, but you're not my mom”, but like, “These two men are driving me nuts. Can I come over to you now?”
Hokulani:
Yeah. Okay.
Emily:
Like what would you say to these kids?
Hokulani:
I would say, if she were – Okay, like 12 years from now, she's like going to be a teenager. And if she were to reach out and like, want to talk to me. If we had no contact before and they weren’t open about it, I'd really just lay out the rules like, “I really was just carrying you. Like you are no part of me. As much as I do love you.”
Emily:
Ouch.
Hokulani:
Like for real, like you are no part of –
Emily:
You are no part of me.
Hokulani:
You are no part of – I love you so much, but I'm not your mom. I'm not your mom. And I don't know if it's okay to say like, “You don't have a mom. You came from an egg from a donor that was a female”, you know?
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
Like just as sperm {crosstalk 36:35 – 37}.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
I don't know if that's crude. I really got to say it. I'm sorry. You can cut out whatever you want. But, yeah, people say like sperm donors and then, you know?
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
But I don't know what the word is for just, besides egg donor.
Emily:
I really do think that it is just an egg donor because there's like –
Hokulani:
Well, like people call men that just aren't there, egg donors.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
But you can never just end up with an egg donor that decides that they're not going to be there. Like this is an active like a very invasive procedure that they have to go through.
So, I don't know. I think I would just really direct her back to her dads that did all, you know, they went through so much; so much to get her here. And if they're willing to sit down, she should be willing to sit down and listen to what they have to say.
Emily:
Yeah.
Hokulani:
And also just –
Emily:
Is she wanted?
Hokulani:
She’s so wanted.
Emily:
Is she loved?
Hokulani:
So loved.
Emily:
Is she's cared for?
Hokulani:
Wanted, cared for. Yes.
Emily:
Does she have the whole world like inside of her?
Hokulani:
She has her whole family that loves her. And then she also has this bonus family that loves her too.
Emily:
Go bonus.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
{crosstalk 37:44 – 46}. Bonus family.
All right. Well, I think that you just busted out your very first ever podcast episode.
Hokulani:
Yeah.
Emily:
Go, Hoku.
All right. So, I just want to thank everybody for listening and be sure to tune in again. I plan to bring on lots more guests. I want to bring people on to talk about all different aspects of adoption. Anything that could possibly be close to adoption, I just want to get it all out there.
And then lastly, one disclaimer: We are not affiliated with LDS Family Services, and they are no longer an adoption agency. They used to be, but they are no longer. So, be sure that you are looking for resources that are active when looking for profiles, couples, education...
Hokulani:
All the good stuff.
Emily:
Find the good stuff.
Hokulani:
All good stuff.
Emily:
All right. Thank you. Thank you. And I will be back for the next episode.